A job in Big Tech is a career goal for many software engineers and engineering managers. So what leads people to quit, after working so hard to land these roles?
"‘The upper tier literally feels like an old European aristocracy – and I’m saying this as someone who lives in the US! People help out their buddies, and are extremely suspicious of anyone not in their ‘club.’ It’s eye-opening to see how many people jump from company to company, taking their buddies with them. They all make lots of money, while keeping it exclusive and making sure it stays that way.’"
What has happened is, when you have only one or two roles open, and they are important, you get a lot more defensive, so you only hire "sure shots", people you know, people for whom their social capital and network capital will mean they have an extra incentive to do a decent job.
This is more of an incentive to do good work and not burn bridges, which I don't see as a bad thing.
Hi Gergely, I have a writing process/workflow question for you. While reading this, I saw you linked to a prior post about how promotion driven development works.
I think there's a lot of great content throughout the years, so how do you know where this content lives, and how are you able to find it?
Hey Andrew - funny enough it mostly lives in my head! I use Substack's search but it doesn't work as I'd like. I've been meaning to build my own RAG search for better results and will eventually have to get around to it.
The benefit of writing this mostly by myself - ha!
This was such a validating read, so thank you for all who contributed their voices!
I had worked at smaller and mid-sized tech companies for the majority of my career before I was recruited by Google. It felt like I couldn't say no to the opportunity even though I was down-leveled. The promotion-driven project culture was really upsetting to witness (and frankly, manage) and I was deeply unhappy as a result of that, my management chain, and a lot of pervasive entitlement. The only thing that kept me from leaving was the abysmal job market. Having my role “eliminated” was the best thing to happen to me, even though it was scary and nerve-wracking. I eventually landed a role with more autonomy, making (mildly) less equity, at a company with a much better culture and a management team that is 20x more transparent than Sundar ever was.
Gergely, something I've been curious about is the "where do they go" as tech folks age. I'm in my early 40s and the number of folks older than me is quite small and they tend to hold very senior positions. But, there just aren't that many of those positions. Are these people just retiring after 20 yrs in tech?
From what *I* see (feel free for others to chip in:
1. There are *some* people who retire from Big Tech now! Amazon and Microsoft are places I do see folks do this.
2. Consulting and advising. I use
3. Cofounding a startup. Seeing people in their late 40s or even early 50s do this.
4. Taking a job intending to retire from. Joining e.g. a bank/investment bank, or even places like IBM where people do retire from is something I also see
For those in Big Tech - especially the US - saving enough money to retire early is also an option. Kelsey Hightower a good example, who announced his retirement in what feels like his early or mid 40s.
Another thing is that if the IT industry expands in general then each new hiring class will be bigger than the previous one and the workforce will skew younger overall.
Another reason that I resonate with a lot comes from a recent post of DHH related to the WordPress fiasco:
> It really is my dream office. But at the same time, it's also just an office, and the most enjoyable part of that is the creative work that happens on the 27" glass rectangle. The relationship between the two is epitomized by Coco Chanel's wonderful quote:
> > The best things in life are free.
> > The second best things are very, very expensive.
> The best thing about work is getting the opportunity to exercise your human capacity for creativity, ingenuity, progress. Having a nice view is one of those "second best things", and the gap between the two is existential. I would never contemplate to give up "the best thing", a work life filled with engaging, challenging tasks of meaning, for more, or any!, of those "second best things", like a nice view.
Basically - at some point engineers at Big Tech become affluent enough where money stops becoming the number one priority. It's all a big vague spectrum of opportunity, fulfillment, excitement and remuneration.
1) Location/remote: Big Tech has aligned on RTO and on doing the bulk of their US hiring in the most expensive cities. After 5-10 years in SF you've got more than enough savings to buy a nice house outright in flyover country, but you're staring down some combination of long commute and high-pressure mortgage payment if you want to raise a family while keeping your Big Tech career.
2) Hiring criteria: little tech might be able to hire you on the strength of a personal recommendation; Big Tech has to put you through the LeetCode ringer. It might be preferable to work with people you trust and respect, who trust and respect you, vs. grinding interview skills to make the most money. Particularly if you already have savings and/or have dropped your cost of living by moving out of Tier 1.
I am sure #1 happens: I just did not talk to anyone as part of this current research that left because of this. It feels like a recent change: but one where no doubt more Big Tech folks are moving to full-remote scaleups or publicly traded companies (e.g. Airbnb, Shopify, GitLab etc).
#2: I'm not quite sure on the point you made here. How does this connect to why people leave?
Ah, got it! Yes, the nature of hiring is hard to unsee once you see it (even though there is plenty of rational from the POV of what these large tech companies optimize for: repeatability, scale able process to hire hundreds or more per year etc.)
But as you said it means these companies say no to hires who don’t fit this mold.
"‘The upper tier literally feels like an old European aristocracy – and I’m saying this as someone who lives in the US! People help out their buddies, and are extremely suspicious of anyone not in their ‘club.’ It’s eye-opening to see how many people jump from company to company, taking their buddies with them. They all make lots of money, while keeping it exclusive and making sure it stays that way.’"
What has happened is, when you have only one or two roles open, and they are important, you get a lot more defensive, so you only hire "sure shots", people you know, people for whom their social capital and network capital will mean they have an extra incentive to do a decent job.
This is more of an incentive to do good work and not burn bridges, which I don't see as a bad thing.
Hi Gergely, I have a writing process/workflow question for you. While reading this, I saw you linked to a prior post about how promotion driven development works.
I think there's a lot of great content throughout the years, so how do you know where this content lives, and how are you able to find it?
Hey Andrew - funny enough it mostly lives in my head! I use Substack's search but it doesn't work as I'd like. I've been meaning to build my own RAG search for better results and will eventually have to get around to it.
The benefit of writing this mostly by myself - ha!
This was such a validating read, so thank you for all who contributed their voices!
I had worked at smaller and mid-sized tech companies for the majority of my career before I was recruited by Google. It felt like I couldn't say no to the opportunity even though I was down-leveled. The promotion-driven project culture was really upsetting to witness (and frankly, manage) and I was deeply unhappy as a result of that, my management chain, and a lot of pervasive entitlement. The only thing that kept me from leaving was the abysmal job market. Having my role “eliminated” was the best thing to happen to me, even though it was scary and nerve-wracking. I eventually landed a role with more autonomy, making (mildly) less equity, at a company with a much better culture and a management team that is 20x more transparent than Sundar ever was.
Gergely, something I've been curious about is the "where do they go" as tech folks age. I'm in my early 40s and the number of folks older than me is quite small and they tend to hold very senior positions. But, there just aren't that many of those positions. Are these people just retiring after 20 yrs in tech?
From what *I* see (feel free for others to chip in:
1. There are *some* people who retire from Big Tech now! Amazon and Microsoft are places I do see folks do this.
2. Consulting and advising. I use
3. Cofounding a startup. Seeing people in their late 40s or even early 50s do this.
4. Taking a job intending to retire from. Joining e.g. a bank/investment bank, or even places like IBM where people do retire from is something I also see
For those in Big Tech - especially the US - saving enough money to retire early is also an option. Kelsey Hightower a good example, who announced his retirement in what feels like his early or mid 40s.
Another thing is that if the IT industry expands in general then each new hiring class will be bigger than the previous one and the workforce will skew younger overall.
Thanks @Gergely, this post is by far which resonates and answers a lot of questions I have had over the years. Amazing!
Another reason that I resonate with a lot comes from a recent post of DHH related to the WordPress fiasco:
> It really is my dream office. But at the same time, it's also just an office, and the most enjoyable part of that is the creative work that happens on the 27" glass rectangle. The relationship between the two is epitomized by Coco Chanel's wonderful quote:
> > The best things in life are free.
> > The second best things are very, very expensive.
> The best thing about work is getting the opportunity to exercise your human capacity for creativity, ingenuity, progress. Having a nice view is one of those "second best things", and the gap between the two is existential. I would never contemplate to give up "the best thing", a work life filled with engaging, challenging tasks of meaning, for more, or any!, of those "second best things", like a nice view.
Basically - at some point engineers at Big Tech become affluent enough where money stops becoming the number one priority. It's all a big vague spectrum of opportunity, fulfillment, excitement and remuneration.
source for those interested: https://world.hey.com/dhh/how-it-started-how-it-s-going-baefaf09
Two factors I'm surprised not to see here:
1) Location/remote: Big Tech has aligned on RTO and on doing the bulk of their US hiring in the most expensive cities. After 5-10 years in SF you've got more than enough savings to buy a nice house outright in flyover country, but you're staring down some combination of long commute and high-pressure mortgage payment if you want to raise a family while keeping your Big Tech career.
2) Hiring criteria: little tech might be able to hire you on the strength of a personal recommendation; Big Tech has to put you through the LeetCode ringer. It might be preferable to work with people you trust and respect, who trust and respect you, vs. grinding interview skills to make the most money. Particularly if you already have savings and/or have dropped your cost of living by moving out of Tier 1.
I am sure #1 happens: I just did not talk to anyone as part of this current research that left because of this. It feels like a recent change: but one where no doubt more Big Tech folks are moving to full-remote scaleups or publicly traded companies (e.g. Airbnb, Shopify, GitLab etc).
#2: I'm not quite sure on the point you made here. How does this connect to why people leave?
It's not why you'd leave your current job, but it might be why you leave the ecosystem for your next gig.
Ah, got it! Yes, the nature of hiring is hard to unsee once you see it (even though there is plenty of rational from the POV of what these large tech companies optimize for: repeatability, scale able process to hire hundreds or more per year etc.)
But as you said it means these companies say no to hires who don’t fit this mold.